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Online Discussion
Women Students and Internet
Relationships
Editor's Note. The contents of headers and
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- MESSAGE
1
- From: Van Norman, Karen
<kvannorman@EXCHANGE.MOC.EDU>
- To:
<STUDEV-L@UCONNVM.UConn.Edu>
- Sent: Thursday, February 17,
2000 4:24 PM
- Subject: Women Students &
Internet Relationships
Colleagues -
I'm interested in knowing if any of
you have experienced what for us is a new "phenomenon" and
if you have any advice.
We are a small college with less than
300 students living on campus. We are also a conservative,
Christian college in a rural
setting. In this past year we have had 4 women abruptly
leave the College with a boyfriend
that they had just recently met. In all cases
the women did not speak with any college
personnel in advance of leaving,
nor did they tell their families. In 2 of the cases, the
women left with a man they had
'met' on the Internet.
We are concerned about the pattern we
see developing here and would
appreciate any input or advice you may have. We will
be doing some educational
workshops about the topic, but frankly I'm
concerned that we may not reach all the
women we need to. Thank you in advance
for your response!
- Karen Van Norman
Vice President for Student Development
Mount Olive College
-
- MESSAGE
2
- Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 16:48:07
-0600
- From: Tim Moore
<tpmoore@MAIL.SMU.EDU>
One of the developing results of being
on the Internet has been the development
of personal relationships between people who have not
met face to face. In fact, there
is a great deal of discussion occurring that
the Internet is reshaping our definitions of relationships
and intimacy.
There is clearly advice on the
Internet about the process of meeting someone
who you have met on line for the first time. I would
encourage all student affairs
professionals to spend some time in on line
chat rooms and observe the content of the conversations - it
may give you some insights about
how to develop effective educational materials.
Part of the reality of on line
relationships is the ability to express
who you are and no one else can physically see me. For
men and women who struggle with
self esteem and body image issues this is
a relief - a comfortable place - unlike a
social gathering where one feels
out of place.
As a final thought, community in the
21st century and thus connection to
one another is less about physical location and much more
about share values. Students may
find people on line who share similar values
to their own than they do with their neighbors on the
campus. Just because we live next
to each other or sit in the same classes doesn't
mean that we share a connection with one another. I may
find that connection through
someone I have met on line.
Hope this helps.
- Tim Moore
- Director of the Hughes-Trigg
Student Center
- Southern Methodist
University
-
- MESSAGE
3
- Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:19:11
-0700
- From: "Fortune, Luke"
<lfortune@CARROLL.EDU>
Hello,
I have just a few comments about Tim
Moore's comments on this issue. Sorry Tim,
I understand what you are trying to convey, but the student
development purist in me can't let
this go \
"Part of the reality of on
line relationships is the ability to express
who you are and no one else can physically see me. For
men and women who struggle with
self esteem and body image issues this
is a relief
- a comfortable place - unlike a social gathering where
one feels out of place."
Being hidden behind the wire for the
sake of pure intellectually social gathering
has its merits, but hiding because of comfort level is, I
believe, developmentally stunting
yourself. Granted, we all passively or actively do
it every day on this list serve, but most
of us lead balanced lives where, even
as introverts, we challenge ourselves to be physically
social. In some ways, it is a
chance to expose ourselves intellectually, and some people
can be very exhibitionist about
it. However, we grow comfortable with our
physical identity through social
interaction by physically meeting and conversing
with others, and if we closet ourselves with our computers,
we risk leaving that part of our
selves underdeveloped.
"As a final thought,
community in the 21st century and thus
connection to
one another is less about physical location and much more
about share values. Students
may find people on line who share similar
values to their own than they do with
their neighbors on the campus. Just
because we live next to each other or sit in the same
classes doesn't mean that we
share a connection with one another. I may
find that
connection through someone I have met on line."
Physical interaction plays a large
role in developing community, just from a
biological standpoint. Sharing value
systems and beliefs have benefits both on-line
and physically. When students sit in the same classes
together, they DO share a
connection, whether they are aware of it or not. They
share the experience: smells,
sights, sounds. That shared sense of awareness can
be so important in building community,
friendships, and learning. Can this be
done on-line? Yes, but only to a point. As a facilitator of
student development, my concern
lies with educating the whole student. Holistic
education is limited by distance
education, just because of the physical limitations.
This does not mean I am against
distance education. In some ways, it is the
only affordable, viable option for some
population groups (especially in Montana),
but it is by no means a replacement for a whole-world,
well rounded, liberal arts
educational experience. Physically experiencing other
cultures, nature, museums, cities, and
much more give us a whole, five-sense experience
that (currently) cannot be duplicated by a
computer.
- Luke W. Fortune,
M.Ed.
- RHD - Borromeo/Coord. Student
Programs
- Carroll College
-
- MESSAGE
4
- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 11:19:20
-0800
From: Mary McGhee <mmcghee@NIAOM.EDU>
-
- At 8:19 AM -0700 2/18/00, Fortune,
Luke wrote:
- >Being hidden behind the wire
for the sake of pure intellectually social
- >gathering has its merits, but
hiding because of comfort level is, I
believe,
- >developmentally stunting
yourself. Granted, we all passively or actively
do
- >it every day on this list
serve, but most of us lead balanced lives
where,
- >even as introverts, we
challenge ourselves to be physically social. In
some
- >ways, it is a chance to expose
ourselves intellectually, and some people can
- >be very exhibitionist about
it. However, we grow comfortable with our
- >physical identity through
social interaction by physically meeting and
- >conversing with others, and if
we closet ourselves with our computers, we
- >risk leaving that part of our
selves underdeveloped.
I'm making an assumption here, but
I'll risk it: I have an idea, Luke,
that you are a person whose appearance is somewhere at
least within shouting distance of
the socially-acceptable mainstream ideal.
If you had lived inside the skin of
someone who'd experienced a great deal
more everyday rejection and derision--who'd been told for
most of their life that they're
unacceptable and unlovable, plain and simple--because
of their looks, you might find it easier to
understand the value of interacting in a
non-visual medium. Getting out
there and physically meeting and conversing with others
just isn't as easy as it sounds
for some folks--at least, not without some
confidence-bolstering baby steps along
the way. We *all* make quick judgements
based on first impressions, and it can be
tremendously reassuring and
empowering to know that those judgements are going to
be based one one's wit, intelligence, and
command of language for a change,
and rather than on one's clothes or height or skin
condition or waist size. People
who've been thoroughly and repeatedly hurt in
face-to-face interactions need time to
heal and safe space to do it in.
Internet relationships may give them just the opportunity
they need to stretch themselves,
develop weak or missing skills, and gain the
confidence they need to risk more multi-dimensional
contacts again. If that's "hiding
behind the wire," then let them hide there.
It's better than hiding behind an
impenetrable wall, not connecting with
anyone, indefinitely.
- >Physical interaction plays a
large role in developing community, just from
a
- >biological standpoint. Sharing
value systems and beliefs have benefits both
- >on-line and physically. When
students sit in the same classes together,
- >they DO share a connection,
whether they are aware of it or not. They
share
- >the experience: smells,
sights, sounds. That shared sense of awareness
can
- >be so important in building
community, friendships, and learning. Can
this
- >be done on-line? Yes, but only
to a point. As a facilitator of student
- >development, my concern lies
with educating the whole student. Holistic
- >education is limited by
distance education, just because of the
physical
- >limitations.
We work with our students where we
find them; we seek to understand their
individual interests and needs and struggles, and to tailor
our services and interventions to
help with them. I'm not willing to neglect
the needs of those who are less ready or willing to go
out and socialize freely and
confidently face-to-face. These folks deserve
to have their needs and feelings validated and their
particular developmental process
respected. If they're getting benefit
from their online relationships, I'm not going to tell
them that this, in and of itself,
is a problem.
- Mary McGhee
- Dean of Students and
Admissions
- Northwest Institute of Acupuncture
and Oriental Medicine
-
- MESSAGE
5
- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 14:37:24
-0700
- From: "Fortune, Luke"
<lfortune@CARROLL.EDU>
Excellent points, Mary! Let me point
out that I don't think that internet relationships
are a bad thing, I just find them very limiting in the
sense that they only provide a
partial-world experience.
You stated:
- "We *all* make quick judgements
based on first impressions, and it
- can be tremendously reassuring and
empowering to know that those judgements
- are going to be based one one's
wit, intelligence, and command of language
- for a change, and rather than on
one's clothes or height or skin condition
- or waist size."
To that end, we all are judged by
others, and part of social interaction (physical
or virtual) is learning to deal with and stand up against
those judgements. This is an
ideal, I know, but I believe the opportunity to
build skills and self-esteem and
self-worth can be better learned in a "real"
environment. I agree that those too hurt or too unwilling to
swim the moat of savage judgement
can learn to tread the basics of interaction
with on-line relationships, but if they
stay in their comfortable space they will
not grow. The world is not as hurtful as some may believe,
but neither is it paradise. If
some one has "been thoroughly and repeatedly hurt in
face-to-face interactions," the problem
does not lie within the development of
that individual, but in the society itself, and that
probably ought be the focus of our
efforts.
Yes, we all judge, and are judged by
others. But it is up to us, the members
of a local and global society, to learn to accept and
celebrate the differences in
people, and to learn that every individual has an
unique contribution to the
community as a whole.
Distance education is a wondrous
opportunity for those who have gone without
any opportunity whatsoever. I only hope
that it is seen as a stepping-stone,
not a replacement for growth and adventure in life. I
am all for validating the needs
and feelings of people and respecting their
particular developmental processes.
However, as a practitioner of student development,
I feel I would be remiss in my chosen service if I did
not challenge such individuals to
grow beyond their comfort level.
- Luke W. Fortune,
M.Ed.
-
- MESSAGE
6
- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:06:29
-0800
- From: Mary McGhee
<mmcghee@NIAOM.EDU>
At 2:37 PM -0700 2/18/00, Fortune,
Luke wrote:
- >Excellent points, Mary! Let me
point out that I don't think that internet
- >relationships are a bad thing,
I just find them very limiting in the sense
- >that they only provide a
partial-world experience.
I don't quite agree. I find them
different, each with its own set of limits
*and* its own set of qualities that give it advantages
over the other. Speaking for
myself, I feel that my life would be far poorer
without either sort.
- >I agree that those too hurt or
too unwilling to swim
- >the moat of savage judgement
can learn to tread the basics of interaction
- >with on-line relationships,
but if they stay in their comfortable space
they
- >will not grow.
For some people, reaching out and
engaging with others across the Internet
is far from comfortable space--it's an
almost-unimaginable stretch and a
risk. I've seen folks who are so damaged that they
quite literally don't feel worthy of
respect or friendship or love--who
are afraid they don't have the right to post a message to
a newsgroup or a listserv and take
up people's time with their thoughts and
questions and problems. I've seen some of these folks take
shaky slow steps toward opening
up, finding their voice as they go, receiving
support and encouragement for the first time from
people who understand a little
about their struggles, until they blossom
with greater confidence and newfound
self-esteem. I have no doubt that
this change is mirrored in their face-to-face interactions
and relationships (and often, I've
heard them say so).
Growth? I haven't often seen growth in
the so-called "real world" that
exceeds what I've seen in some online communities. Some of
the bravest people I've known have
faced some of the greatest challenges and
come through them stronger, ready for greater
ones...largely through their
interactions with others online. I feel fortunate to
have been there, and maybe sometimes
played a part. I don't like hearing
these efforts discounted or the successes
dismissed.
Some of these folks may find that,
over time, their face-to-face relationships
become more comfortable and take on greater
importance in their lives, and the
online ones slip more into the background.
But you know what? If they don't, I'm not
willing to say that these individuals
are wrong, or giving up too easily, or failing to
grow. They've found a kind of
meaningful human contact that works for them;
it's better than where they were, and it
has the potential for continuing
to help them change and develop and benefit. I can
accept that this is what works for
some folks, it harms no one, and I can't assume
that it must be inferior or less highly-evolved than my way
of being.
- > The world is not as hurtful
as some may believe, but neither
- >is it paradise. If some one
has "been thoroughly and repeatedly hurt in
- >face-to-face interactions,"
the problem does not lie within the
development
- >of that individual, but in the
society itself, and that probably ought be
- >the focus of our
efforts.
Well, umm, yes. I think that most of
us spend a lot of time and energy
toward that end, both during work hours and on our own
time. I know I do. But until we
bring about this New Age, where does that
leave the folks who are struggling in the
old one?
- >Yes, we all judge, and are
judged by others. But it is up to us, the
- >members of a local and global
society, to learn to accept and celebrate the
- >differences in people, and to
learn that every individual has an unique
- >contribution to the community
as a whole.
...and to learn that each individual
has his or her own struggles, and
a unique developmental journey to make, and that we need
to accept and celebrate and
support those as best we can, even when we
don't entirely understand
them.
- >Distance education is a
wondrous opportunity for those who have gone
without
- >any opportunity whatsoever. I
only hope that it is seen as a
- >stepping-stone, not a
replacement for growth and adventure in life.
I think that distance education is a
different issue altogether.
- >I am
- >all for validating the needs
and feelings of people and respecting their
- >particular developmental
processes. However, as a practitioner of
student
- >development, I feel I would be
remiss in my chosen service if I did not
- >challenge such individuals to
grow beyond their comfort level.
I'm just saying that we have to fully
understand, or at least try to respectfully
appreciate, what an individual's comfort level is
before we decide what is or isn't
an appropriate level of challenge to it.
Mary McGhee
- MESSAGE
7
- Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 15:33:32
-0800
- From: Craig Elliott
<celliott@HOUSING.SJSU.EDU>
I think it is important to realize
that, as Mary shared, the esteem issues of
students, in this case, as the
same whether they are
communicating face-to-face or through a computer.
That for me is the important element in
all of this.
- Craig
- Craig M Elliott II
- Assistant Director for
Residential Life
- San Jose State
University
-
- MESSAGE
8
- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 11:04:32
-0500
- From: Joseph Oppedisano
<oppedj02@POPMAIL.MED.NYU.EDU>
I have been following the discussion
about internet relationships and self esteem.
And although they have been quite interesting I think
Karen's initial questions
regarding her students have been neglected.
"In this past year we have
had 4 women abruptly leave the College with a
boyfriend that they had just recently
met . . . In 2 of the cases, the women
left with a man they had 'met' on the
Internet."
This seems to imply that the concern
is not just about internet relationships
but about students leaving abruptly with men they have
only recently become involved
with.
There are several areas that are not
clear, however. First, how many students
leave the college each year and for what reasons, that makes
these students of specific
concern? Keep in mind that students can and do leave
college every year for a number of
reasons. And they don't necessarily need to
tell anyone, that's a harsh reality. Reducing attrition is
always an admirable goal, but we
must accept that part of going to college is to
experience something different and some
people will realize that this is not what
they want.
It is also not clear what the
institution is looking to accomplish and
therefore begs the question of values. Is
this an issue of institutional values?
Does the college feel compelled to work with students to
reduce attrition and maintain
successful graduates who have the conservative
christian values espoused by that
institution? In which case the, workshops
might include ways to assist students in
integrating their christian values into
everyday life, including relationships. A program might also
be established that guides
students toward personnel who can discuss with the
student any ideas of leaving the
institution before a final decision is made.
Is this a concern over students'
personal values? Many students' values shift
as they progress through college. It is not surprising that
some of them would end up leaving
the institution in various ways. Are these
students using relationships as an "out?"
Do the men they meet have similar christian
values or are they contrary to them? In which case,
workshops may want to deal with
how students can assess their own and others values.
Talking about changing values may be
difficult given the nature of the institution
but I am certain that there are ways to integrate
these discussions within a
Christian framework.
Is this a concern about the potential
hazards of making quick relationship decisions?
We have all experienced the anxiety that comes from a
student's decision to give up on
education because of a relationship. We fear that
the relationship will end once the
infatuation wears off and the student will
be left floundering for new goals and direction that did not
need to be given up on in the
first place. Not to mention the simple hazards
inherent in running off with
someone you barely know. In which case, workshops on
self esteem, dependency, relationship
issues, trust and goal setting may be appropriate.
The point is to help students struggle
with various issues within the safety of
the institution. My guess is that some or all (and probably
more) of these issues come into
play. I would first suggest determining the goals
and outcomes that your institution is
looking for - this will help in determining
the types of assistance to provide. It may then be necessary
to educate faculty and staff. We
often forget that they are the people who we
need to carry out our goals and shape
students and for these reasons we need to
make sure they(we) have the necessary skills to do
that.
You may also want to look into
building a Freshman Year experience program
if you don't have one already. I would
imagine that there are students who come
into the institution not sure of their values or may even
have felt obligated to attend this
type of institution because of parents. It might
prove helpful to work with student
[and parents] at the outset to get a
sense of what issues are at work in their
decisions to be there and how best to
make sense of their experience.
Sorry for my vagueness but, I hope
that some of this helps.
- Joseph Oppedisano
- Student Affairs
Coordinator
- NYU School of
Medicine
-
- MESSAGE
9
- Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 12:02:26
-0500
- From: "Van Norman, Karen"
<kvannorman@EXCHANGE.MOC.EDU>
Joseph -
Thank you for your response to my
question posted to the listserv. I
did not make our concerns and goals clear enough in
my original message, but you did
identify them - concern with students making
major/life-changing decisions for a new relationship and
the possible dangers of leaving
with someone the student barely knows. We
are building our programming and
development plans around the issues you mentioned
(self-esteem, relationships, referrals) as well as
personal safety.
You are also correct that students
leave school all the time and
sometimes choose not to discuss their decision. The
'trend' that has concerned us here
is the # (high for our experience) that have
done so for a new relationship and the
new aspect of Internet relationships.
As others have mentioned, there are many inherent
positive aspects of the Internet and
meeting people online. At the same time
I believe it is also important for us to help our students
learn basic and 'common sense'
steps they can take to avoid potentially dangerous
situations. I also believe it is another aspect of
their development to learn about
themselves and their relationships - both
current and potential. Hopefully our
programming will help to achieve this.
I remain appreciative of any other
advice that may be out there, and
I come back to part of what I meant my original
question to be - are any of you
experiencing an increase in this type of student
withdrawal as we seem to be? I'm curious
if you have found it to be a 'passing'
phenomenon or an actual developing trend.
Thank you to everyone for your comments
and advice - I learn a great deal
from the exchange.
Karen Van Norman
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